#4 Innovation, Identity, and Ownership: Cashless Society 101 with Brian Asingia

Janna 0:00

Welcome to Access Ideas. This is Janna and today I'm pleased to share an extended interview with Brian Asingia, or Asingia, as you'll hear. Asingia is the CEO and co- founder of the dream Galaxy platform, an innovative studio that trains, advises and funds ethical entrepreneurial leaders to launch grow and scale inclusive innovations. Today's conversation covers a diverse range of topics that focus on and relate to what Asingia calls the Cashless Society, which in its broadest sense reframes how we as individuals and communities, allocate invest and exchange value. This concept is already transforming transactional relationships within countries and communities around the world. And I couldn't help but feel excited by the possibilities. The time flew by for me in this conversation, and I think you'll find it a fascinating perspective compared to conventional ideas about finance. Asingia's forthcoming book, Cashless Society 101 will be published in March and includes topics we discuss today, and much more. And now I bring you Brian Asingia!

Janna 1:41

Welcome to Access Ideas, Asingia. It's great to have you on the podcast. How are you doing?

Asingia 1:46

I'm good. Thank you Janna.

Janna 1:48

I'm really interested in having you on the podcast today to talk a little bit about something that I'm relatively new to, the idea of a cashless society. And I understand that you have a lot of background in this, you advise other businesses and organizations on this idea. And you actually have a book coming out as well. Cashless Society 101. So I'd like if you could introduce yourself, and tell us a little bit about how your ideas have come together, and what your philosophy is on this topic.

Asingia 2:21

Sure. Well, I'm Brian Asingia, I go by Asingia. And originally from Uganda, I'm currently speaking to you from New York. And I guess, by way of educational slash work background, I'm electrical computer engineer by training I did about two and a half years at the New York Stock Exchange right out of undergrad, and mostly transitioned to entrepreneurship slash business because I started my company immediately, I suppose one year after graduating. We've worked on a variety of products and solutions. Our first project was Dream Galaxy, which was originally Dream Africa, we've since rebranded to be more inclusive. And that's really an educational media distribution platform that distributes culturally relevant or culturally responsive media and in audio and video format, and I suppose in the future, we will do 360 AR content. And our goal is to help people see themselves in educational media or media they consume, that could be news, we partner currently with about 500 higher learning institutions across Africa, as as one of our major contributors, and we hope will continue to interact with other content producers soon.

Janna 3:40

Wow. That's quite a transition, though, from software engineering. Do you want to talk a little bit about how you decided to pursue Dream Galaxy and and something so different than you originally studied?

Asingia 3:54

but I think at that time –: 2013

Janna 8:13

Great, and at this point, who are most of your clients and the users for Dream Galaxy? You mentioned initially the African audience, what other countries do your clients and the audience for Dream Galaxy – where are they?

Asingia 8:28

Yeah, so look at the numbers, which we now have. Actually, I think China is number one. Because there's a lot of interest in Africa, from China. I would say US comes in second, because we're a new US based with a subsidiary in Nairobi, and I do envision down the road Africa will sort of become the bigger sort of demographic, but we've, we do, you know, we're starting to accept content from all over because one of the criticisms we got early on was a company that's trying to be inclusive, we should not restrict ourselves to a single continent. And I think that is globally true, in essence, that there's a lot of Africans, or people of African descent or African influence, now in major cities all over the world so that global rebranding and positioning has just made it easier to just be a place for inclusive content and inclusive innovations and a little bit easier to have those conversations then with everybody without just restricting it to an African lens where people may think it's just for Africans, or some people may be African, but they don't know how African they are. So you know, "am I still African and if I haven't visited in a while?', but you know, sure you kind of help eliminate those barriers and invite people in for conversation. And that's been an easier way to, benefit from the rebranding.

Janna 9:56

Well, one of the ideas that I find incredibly powerful that you've talked about is exactly that: breaking down barriers, and specifically this idea of the cashless society, and how so many of our financial transactions and certainly the history of financial transactions in the so called Western world are constrained by all kinds of limits and barriers and regulations. So do you want to talk a little bit more about what the cashless society idea is, and who your intended audience is for that, not just the book, but I think the idea itself is quite powerful. So if you want to elaborate...

Asingia: 10:35

I'll start off with the idea. The idea has two simple definitions, and one is an extension of the definition that has been around since the 60s, where a cashless society is really a society that prioritizes or prefers electronic transactions over cash or paper based transactions. So one clarification I like to make is the composition extends beyond cash. So it also refers to maybe nowadays with travel, electronic airline check in or electronic hospital visits via video. And, and that is becoming almost the norm, as we've seen since COVID. Where digital transactions are just becoming increasingly critical to any business or institutional service delivery include including governments, I think tax filings, all these things are becoming digitized almost overnight, which is great in so many ways, and we can dig deeper. And the second definition is less technical, and somewhat philosophical. And I added that for personal reasons. And the definition is basically, in a casual setting then becomes a society that does not use cash as the basis for assigning value.

Janna: 11:52

So you mean fiat currency?

Asingia: 11:54

Yeah. And that can be value in terms of just the value of exchanges or values of service delivery, or values of assets, like land and water and air and really any resources a community might have. So that whether or not there's a demand for something should not have a bearing on the value of something, which is a purely capitalist way of looking at something. So for communal societies like Africa, and Asia, and one could argue most of Latin America, that becomes increasingly important so that communities can still protect their resources, without being sucked into the capitalist idea that is full of its own complexity, but rather, that these communities can fundamentally land to understand the inherent value of resources within their community, even before being transitioned into a capitalist system. So I think that is particularly relevant to Africa. And I know you had asked about regulation or other factors, I'll try to tie the two. Because in Africa, I think the biggest challenge is, the West tries to set a price for Africa, when I argue that Africa is priceless, like they, you know–

Janna: 13:17

Just to clarify, when you say the West tries to set a price, do you mean on specific resources or services or like anything?

Asingia: 13:26

Generally and specifically; well, historically, they've set a price on the value of human beings in Africa, they've continued to set a price on the value of resources, gold, diamonds, and oil, including saying part of that cost is maybe the assassination of African leaders, which is, which is, you know, a fact documented. And if you can look at declassified CIA files to that effect. If we look at art, they put a price on that saying that Africans are incapable of preserving their own history and culture and art, which is false. And that's why millions of art pieces are still in global museums from the Met to perhaps the British Museum. We're seeing some of that being returned. But again, these are these are the facts of today and the reality. So that's the perception of value being communicated or arrived at by an external party, without regard to really, as I mentioned, the priceless value of the art of the resources of the people and by people we refer to the talent but also the future, the legacy and the sustainable, key contributor to the population in terms of both innovation and also the market place because ultimately, these populations become the market for goods and services. So I think that that that external valuation (if we want to call it that) is the deterrent. So if you did it the opposite where where Africa was strengthened more and more to communicate its own value, or what it thinks it's worth, and maybe that became the standard, then only then do I feel like there will be a more equitable world. And I think we see that with China, and we see that with the Arab world, where they can communicate unequivocally what they think they deserve. And ultimately, despite the West's resistance, they do at least get some level of respect. So that's what I mean by the external valuation.

Janna: 15:43

And it sounds as well, like you're talking about the legacy of the slavery and colonial power and influence within Africa, and how that has evolved to dictate or identify value external to Africa, even today, you want to talk a little bit about your philosophy around how your ideas have come together. That might not be a traditional Western philosophy, although, in fact, it is not a traditional Western philosophy of economics. Maybe go into a little detail about that, because that's really important.

Asingia: 16:24

Yeah, thanks for asking. I think I'll go a little bit back because I'm a history fanatic. So I think these ideas actually started, when I first wrote my first book, The Last Digital Frontier, and that's documenting the history and perhaps tries to predict the house as a technology might evolve with it with in Africa, especially from an African perspective. And in that book, I discuss four main ideas or themes that I then somehow extend in Cashless Society, 101. Now more for customer, global audience, obviously, and those key ideas are: identity, ownership, trust, and scale. And identity, then, to me means philosophically, both the traditional sort of cultural identity, but also language, especially when we think about technology, language is increasingly becoming relevant in how people communicate online, as well as offline, but how we translate that language and allow communication across languages will continue to be relevant. Ownership, but also one could say technically, that includes digital identities right here, your email, your password, your passport, that to me is the cultural lens, that often becomes more powerful and critical to interactions.

Janna: 17:48

Yeah, sometimes I feel like identity is conflated with individuality. That's a very sort of popular idea. And and it's really important to distinguish that here, because identity is so much more than the individual person.

Asingia: 18:07

Yeah. And, and I wouldn't say it's a purely Western way, I think in all societies, actually, the individual has a role. It's more so that in Western society, the individual is, I want to say lied to that they have more power, that they come first before society, which I suppose can make sense in an ideal sense, but practically, somehow then becomes difficult, because the individual spends most of their time in school, which is a communal institution, then at work, which is an institution you're grouped and what you're working with coworkers and colleagues. So there's still what I call social dynamics all around you. And yet, you're told that it's the individual focus, that's the most important. So I think, we often focus on the individual part in Western societies to the detriment of the need to train people to be better collaborators, to be better communicators to be just better at getting along with other people. Because actually, 90% of the time when you're at school, or even if you're home, you still stay with people, unless you live alone. And again, in a city like New York, most people do share apartments with other people. So I think their social interactions, maybe let's not call them communal. Because people might think we're speaking of communism. I think that social interactions and social groupings are much more common than individual settings for most of our lives. And so, to me, the individual focus becomes important when we think of agency and the idea that an individual can decide what is right and what is wrong and take ownership of their own decision making. That's a powerful mindset. But I don't think that's unique to the West. I think it's supported in the West It's just not unique. So I think what makes, to me the communal mindset of Asia, Africa, Latin America, that much more important is the recognition that an effective society actually then understands the existence of individuals, but also the relationship among the individuals of the society, and then tries to create a foundation or a framework around how those relationships can then be developed or maintained. So where the individual perseveres or thrives on the West is, one could say, from seeking their own individual freedom and their own needs and pursuing their own dreams. That might be acknowledged, and perhaps more of that could exist in other societies. But it doesn't mean that the ultimate solution, right, it should not come at the price of the social foundation.

Janna: 21:00

I think, you know, certainly with COVID-19, we've seen the extreme limits of individualism exposed when they're pushed to the brink, where people argue – some people argue – for individual freedoms, overriding the well-being of the group, the community, certainly here in Canada, there's very heated discussions right now about people who are not getting vaccinated having to pay an additional tax around healthcare, because they're technically costing taxpayers more money for their health care, or they are more likely to. And I'm really interested in this idea of, you know, what are the limits of individualism because I see a lot of problems in our current culture that individualism doesn't solve everything. And as you said, there's countries that could still stand to benefit from individualism and individualistic policies, but I feel sometimes we're ignoring other really important ideas around connection and community. Who are we in the context of our ancestors, of our relationships? Who are we in our society, aside from because really, everything is in relationship, our value is always in relationship. And as I see it, so I think this is a really powerful idea of a cashless or digital society. And I think sometimes people see it as simply exchanging currencies. So one of the things I wanted to address was, you know, when you hear the word cashless, some people think, oh, that just means using cryptocurrency. And certainly cryptocurrency plays a role here, but maybe you want to clarify, where where people might think they hear the word cashless and think, well, that just means using Bitcoin.

Asingia: 23:03

Yeah, let me quickly rephrase what or answer the question you had asked around who is the for. So the book is primarily for young people, maybe 20 to 30 year olds, that are really just beginning to think about their lives and what they might do or want to become. And, and I get that then the secondary audience becomes, as adults, recent graduates, working people, parents, policymakers in particular. Because it's really, in short, my own journey in trying to understand what doing the right thing means, especially across different societies. And I've had the privilege of just interacting with people from almost all corners of the world, having gone to an international high school with kids from over 200 countries, and living in New York, probably one of the most diverse places in the world. So I think doing the right thing means so many things to so many people. But part of the question and coming back to the concept of, of value exchange and cohabitation and sort of social interactions, to me, you know, this I started again, in my first book, The Last Video Frontier where I had thought about well, before cash, let's think of life before cash, where you had barter trade. I'll give you one cattle for, or 10 cattle for a piece of land or, you know, we'll figure it out. I have something you have something, I have excess or surplus you have, you have a need, how do we fulfill each other's needs and trade across kingdoms and cultures? And you know. So there was trade, and one could argue that currency as a concept of fiat. I mean, it's been around since, you know, long time. Coins and you know, all kinds of coins and perhaps kings approval stamps being valuable for certain transactions, you know, so I'm saying that, you know, fear is only as important as the trust society places in it. So cash or currency is only as important... Part of my argument and part of the idea behind Dream Galaxy has been that in the future, its culture, the cultural currency, that will increasingly be more and more important, because culture somehow brings that trust with it.

Janna: 25:35

Yeah, yes.

Asingia: 25:36

And, and so all of a sudden, you have a sense of value, you have a sense of belonging, you have a sense of ownership, and we'll get some of those sub themes. But so that's kind of what I mean that fundamentally cashless then means, it's not just about cash, it's not just about fiat, that it's actually about values and things people prioritize. You know, you go into any society, it could be a union of employees, it could be a high school, and you ask them, what do you really care about? Forget money, what do you really... Because we often use money, like money, like technology is just a way to do something, right? It's a means of exchange. So what are we really trying to do with it, nobody wants money to just sit on it and lock it in, you know, on TV looks cool, like, I'm gonna have a mattress full of dollars, and then I can just sleep on it for one evening. But that's not the ultimate use of money, right? Like, we all kind of want to go beyond that initial satisfaction of like, look at all this money I have to then deploying it, and like putting the money to work as as they say. So, to me, it's like getting back to that question of why do we need money? What are we trying to achieve with it? And can we achieve it without money? Because not, if you think about imagining markets, for example, the cash way hasn't worked. You know, we look at we look at colonialism, you look at post colonial, and now all these development sort of initiatives by the World Bank and others, they are looking at it from a cash perspective of we're gonna require x billion of dollars to solve a particular issue.

Janna: 27:21

Yeah

Asingia: 27:21

But often, it's a social issue that maybe doesn't even need money, and they never look at the other side of the equation.

Janna: 27:27

You have a personal story about your own experience with cash and corruption, as I understand it, do you want to mention that?

Asingia: 27:36

Sure. Um, so I think I mean, as probably as old as I was six, I've just grown up kind of exposed to my dad worked for the city clerk, and specifically, he did land surveying and land evaluation. So if you're buying a piece of land, his office would then tell you which neighborhood you're buying it in and whether it's residential, commercial, what taxes you might pay, you know, and the kind of business, or, infrastructure, you could build on a particular set of properties. So dealing with title deed, record keeping, and other things just brought a whole lot of complexity. And from time to time, he would just be arrested. And and I imagine it was the corruption within the office, that they often scapegoat somebody low level, because then the big guys don't necessarily have to get arrested. But that just became a norm where, you know, something would happen, and you will be in jail, and he'll be out and it'll be in jail. And the very people who put him there would then perhaps pay pay off the prosecutors. So it was one of those things that just happened, but nobody was ever... Nobody ever really paid the price for the corruption, it was more of a public stunt that happened just predictably, cyclically, where somebody just had to go to jail for a day or two, and then some, you know, I don't know who else would be paid off, and then things would blow over and, and that still happens today. And that's kind of the norm. The worst case scenario, for me at least the breaking point was when I was coming to the US and I needed some local document re-validated, you know, that I was born there to be able to obtain my US visa. And somebody who happened to be a former English teacher was working as a secretary for a local council chairperson and that was directly asking for a bribe for me to then be able to get this document to satisfy that I was Ugandan and, and so having grown up I mean, this is the first time I'm trying to leave the country. I've never left it so this you know, I've known this whole... this one country my whole life. And and even that becomes a cash transaction of like, no, you need to pay us something for us to prove that you're actually who you say you are. So that you can go do this thing that you want to do. Forget that you qualified for those programs, forget that you have a scholarship, forget all these other factors that should really be important. It still comes down to cash. And and obviously I walked out of the room, I think somehow, long story short, my mom found a way to deal with it. Obviously apologizing that I was young and naive and didn't know what was going on. So I think about all those things of like, what does that show to a 13 year old 18 year old that this is the world you're exposed to. And you're told that that's how it should be? When I try to argue that it shouldn't, you know, and I feel like the moment you start participating in it, I think, for me, it was like, if that means I don't have to go study abroad, then I'm not going but I don't want to participate in an act that I know, once I start down that road, ultimately, there's no turning back. And so those kinds of moments where cash has been almost a barrier to progress, despite qualifications, academic or otherwise, has really allowed me to feel like their ought to be a better way. Because that wasn't necessarily adding value to my life. If anything, it was standing in the way. And so I have a very sort of personal relationship with cash or money where I'm often not overly impressed by money.

Janna: 31:32

No.

Asingia: 31:32

It's like it's there to serve a purpose. But don't let it be the end result. And because society still exists outside of it. So that's for me is the ultimate meaning of this philosophical definition of cashless is to say, let's put the cash equation or compensation aside, what are we trying to achieve without it? And if you can't have that conversation, then there's really nothing worth discussing in my opinion. There ought to be a bigger debate or a bigger goal beyond the cash.

Janna: 32:07

Well, and one of the complications, of course of currency of cash based transactions or even digital transactions is tax and, you know, governments use tax to pay for public goods, public services. Do you see that as possible in a digital or cashless economy?

Asingia: 32:29

Absolutely. One way I answered that in the book is to say even Jesus acknowledged for Christians, you know, give unto Caesar what is Caesar's. So I'm not advocating in any way for tax evasion. Although I would advise smart tax filings and always get the best content you can. Doesn't hurt. But I think there will always be a role for government, there will always be role. And there again, comes the issue of shared ownership. So part of the at the end of the book, I do talk about shared responsibility and individual agency. So as an individual, your agency's what's important and you decided to do the right thing. I'm not saying I'm perfect, but I often I think I try and and as a company, we try to embrace that philosophy. So how do institutions as well then recognize this shared responsibility model, and I think taxation is just a perfect example of that. You're paying individually into a social institution whose primary goal... Well, in America, I suppose we tried to spin it as I pay taxes, so it benefits me as an individual. But really the correct way is you're paying taxes into an institution that will create social programs and solutions. But from a capitalist mindset, somehow that's perceived as socialism. So the it's still reframed as, so you can benefit as an individual because some of that's more appealing. But if you would have figured that out as an individual, then you would not need to pay taxes.

Janna: 34:00

Well, this is the funny thing about libertarians, I always ask if they're willing to build their own roads and have their own fire stations and police stations. And...

Asingia: 34:10

Yeah

Janna: 34:11

There's so much...

Asingia: 34:12

Their own island.

Asingia: 34:13

...as people, yeah, that we benefit from the common good. And certainly, again, I'm going back to the example of COVID. We benefit when people that we don't know and will never know are healthy and not sick. Because once we see, for example, right now, there's there's a big peak in COVID cases, because of Omicron, and many of us are affected simply because teachers, medical staff, employees are sick. So it's not necessarily that we ourselves are suffering with the illness, but that effect is so obviously amplified when we see this example. And maybe you can talk a little bit about the alternative. So one of the examples I really thought was interesting in your book was the use of something called M-Pesa. Or M-Pesa in Kenya, and then East Africa. So maybe talk a little bit about that, and the use case and advantage versus the West African cash banking practice.

Asingia: 35:20

Yeah, so the the idea of connectedness, which is really at the core of some of the philosophical arguments we've been having, and that becomes the link to this technical solution we're looking at, by connectedness as an individual, you're sending money to somebody, as an individual sending money to family, as an individual, you're paying a business, or you're paying your taxes. So I think the internet or technology has become very, very useful in connecting us and facilitating so many experiences and transactions that we wouldn't do otherwise. And one powerful example, then that I share is M PESA, which is a simple text based system. All you need is a what they call a feature phone, that doesn't even have to be a smartphone. Your old Motorola, your old Nokia, like the oldest oldest version of a phone, you can think of. Sony Ericsson, the old brand, Glover now would do really well in this in this field, because all you all you need is the ability to send a text message. And so to think about that, for a society, like Kenya, and now Uganda, where, you know, I grew up where financial literacy was just a distant concept or business ownership was just socially not supported. And now to have trillions of dollars, literally the fastest and largest mobile banking ecosystem in the world, being based in Africa. That's now continuing to scale, mainly because they have impressed the simplicity of design, as I mentioned, all you need is the ability to send a text message, but also localization from a language and cultural perspective, where now you can send a text message in any language, and still be able to do banking. So you don't need to be an expert in English or French, which is often the case for most Africans, sort of, depending on your colonial history, that that becomes the bondage that links you to progress because you cannot detach yourself completely. A quick contrast in West Africa. And the reason for the success in East Africa was because Kenya has embraced a more, I don't want to say Western, but let's say progressive, sort of laissez faire led innovation happen to benefit society, which is the ideal for a cashless society, right technologies fulfilling its role of benefiting society, as opposed to in the West, where they're saying no, let innovation exist to benefit capitalism, where we're gonna protect existing banks, to almost have a monopoly on banking. And so for you to get a digital banking license, you then have to first register as a traditional bank. So we are only gonna support traditional banks to mostly innovate in that space in in West Africa, as opposed to Kenya or Ethiopia that are embracing telecom companies, fulfilling the role of banking, because traditional banks are not innovating enough to cater to the masses. And that's the big, big, just exposure of just the difference in policy and government responsibility. And our regulatory policy can actually ship the level of innovation and the scale. Part of the challenge for West Africa is also especially for Senegal, and I would argue that, you know, parts of Nigeria, like Morocco areas, is they have this, CFA, which is a French currency that, I think as of now is trying to be phased out and be replaced by an Eco, which is almost like an Ecowas, which is economic countries of West Africa, in short. That's like a regional regional body of about, I suppose, six to 10, West African member states. And so the challenge with the CFA, which is a French mandated currency by origin and design, is that it is backed by African currency deposits in France.

Janna: 39:24

Wow.

Asingia: 39:25

You know, trillion or one could say, billions or trillions of dollars on a ratio of I think it's about 80 to 20, 20% of the results are in Africa, 80% in France. So, again, that goes to show like, do we really need this money, or currency or fiat, where we don't even have ownership or control of a store of the underlying asset backing it and we have to rely on another country to validate our value or our economic value? Let's put it that way. So I think part of the the bigger challenge and opportunity for disruption is migration away from what we can call it what it is colonial currency to more African defined or more decentralized currencies that then really embrace the ideals of communities and back into that value. So I think that's the bigger trend and perhaps the... it moves beyond m PESA. And I was saying a lot of these in in crypto and these kind of blockchain innovations, where African governments are saying, well, okay, let's research these opportunities. Why not a currency? I suppose I mentioned in the book is A-coin started by Akon musician. I was ambassador for that. I think what they're trying to do is, how do we have a single currency for Africa, that's digital. And suppose entrepreneurship, because there's still challenges around cross border trade. Obviously, taxation and just the ability to handle currency exchanges alone, is very complex when you're doing business across borders in Africa. And the African Union, obviously is aware of this and is is also has its own ambitions to support prosperous border trade digitally and via blockchain. And there's reasons for that, right? One is, when you digitize an ecosystem, statistically, yourself, you'll have an eight, you realize a cost savings of about 80%.

Janna: 41:27

Wow

Asingia: 41:28

...from a paper based kind of system. So for Africa that has a long history of not having a lot of, or having a lot of paper based record keeping, including traditional fiat or colonial fiat, this becomes a big win, because all of a sudden we can have 80% cost savings. Well, hopefully some of that money goes towards health care and education and other services. But then the other advantage is the traceability of digital systems and digital transactions, that for me becomes critical in fighting fraud and corruption, and other misuse, we can call it budget misuse, because a lot of parliamentary national budgets often go under utilized for so many reasons, one of them being lack of accountability. So that becomes the the promise of technology. You can have the traceability, and then beyond m-PESA, right, so why crypto not m-PESA, one could argue, well, I would say m-PESA becomes your Phase One becomes your last mile of access, it works for everybody. Because you don't have to have complicated... it's more inclusive, because you can reach the most people, because not everybody has a smartphone yet. But beyond that the crypto interface really allows like a permanent record.

Janna: 41:58

Exactly.

Janna: 42:31

...because it's on the blockchain. So now, if the government says they spent $10 billion on education, we can go and see where those $10 billion went. And then zoom in on the educational department and say, well, where's your ledger? Where's your record? And how that was spent, like part of my dream, which I doubt, I believe to say this, but I think it's already happening in Taiwan, I actually met the Taiwanese digital minister in New York a while back. And they were presenting on how they've advocated open open government as a concept, where the citizens actually meet on a weekly basis with members of the Budget Office, and will have proposals or recommendations on how they wish their taxes should be spent within their community. And that budget is voted on publicly, transparently, online via a website or app. And then that money is allocated and then reports submitted regularly on how that's being spent. So everybody in the community knows exactly where the dollars are going. And it's just revived their civic engagement and had this just sense of ownership. That...

Janna: 44:01

Wow, yeah.

Asingia: 44:02

...You know, people can pay that taxes, but also they get a direct say, ultimately in how some of that is spent, and they get more visibility into that. So for me, you know, it's a dream to maybe one day see, like an African government say, we will provide digital visibility or traceability into how your national budget is being allocated. Maybe not to the last mile, but imagine the government needs to only point which departments are getting which amount, then the local governments need only, you know, point out which departments within the local governments are getting that amount, right. You can just have a, you know, a drill down kind of visualization and and we don't have to trace it to the last dollar. But you can imagine at least to $1,000, $10,000, $100,000, a million dollars. Can we see where those dollars are going? And I think that could really allow communities to know where to spend most of their time and energy in terms of how the the the cash is being allocated.

Janna: 44:42

And earn trust amongst the government.

Asingia: 45:09

Because to me, it often points to what society considers important if we think cash is the indicator. So why don't we just use the cash as an indicator of what we value then, as opposed to hiding it? If we're telling everybody cash is important, why is it so hard to have more visibility and accountability around it?

Janna: 45:32

Great point. Great point. And going back to what you were saying earlier about the cost savings simply by switching to digitization. This really addresses another topic that you talk about, which is banking the unbanked ...approximately 4 billion people. So all of that cost savings actually can go into empowering individuals to conduct transactions through their phones, or other means. But I just find that mind blowing, because it is, it's so powerful to think of people who previously didn't have access to conduct their own transactions in a regulated environment or a transparent environment. Do you want to talk a little bit about that, and how that could potentially transform communities as well?

Asingia: 46:25

Absolutely. Yeah. Again, I like to use my own examples. But part of it is I know, there's examples resonate to a lot of my friends, a lot of Africans are they, even though we're very different and complicated. Well, I grew up without a bank. I would argue my parents probably didn't have a bank account until later on in their lives. And that really creates a different dynamics where you don't do a lot of financial planning, you don't have a lot of savings, you don't do a lot of investing, you don't do a lot of safety nets for the family, and also socially. So to see that in a my generation, or 30 years later, which is not a long time, I'm thirty-three, that our generation or our kids, you know, everybody can grow up knowing banking. And that's something I've been just very excited to... been very excited pushing my family towards that of like, I will, you know, moving forward, even if I'm sending you a gift, send me a digital, you know, wallet ID or like, let's just because then there's a receipt of I don't need to know, they, you know, I will know when they receive the money as soon as they know, because it's all real time. But there's also just a connection element to it, that it's not just this digital excitement around banking, that all of a sudden, we can talk about financial conversations and say, you know, start having conversations around saving and investing, unlike use of, of money for business purposes, or how do you grow your balance? You know, you have a balance on your on your phone? Okay, maybe initially was just donation based, but how do you make sure it's growing? And you're actually earning as opposed to just being a donation based society? So I think it's, it's, you know, yes, 4 billion sounds a lot. Globally, Africa has about 1.3 billion people, I would say only less than 25% of that should probably have banking, probably lower than that. And maybe 10 to 20%. And so, for digital banking, to capture the other billion across Africa, we're seeing the same in Southeast Asia, and Latin America. That's huge. It also means by the way beyond banking, it means better tax. If we go back to the government, if we want to make the government happy. That also means better tax collection capabilities.

Asingia: 48:57

US federal government, for example, just passed a law under the Biden administration, any digital transactions over $600 has to be reported to the IRS, which means they will have more visibility into you know, what people are making and how they can pay taxes on that income. But it also means ideally, if we flip the coin, we can say we can demand more accountability for my governments to show us how they're spending the money and that benefits society. So I do think that banking the unbanked is just the first step to effective service delivery. Because when you start with financial access, you can bond on the transparency that comes with it, the financial literacy education that comes with it. And now people understand insurance people can understand savings people can understand investments. And and we can really finally, I believe the next decade or two it does take time, will usher in a new era that is just aid independent or donor independent, there'll always be room for aid in a disaster scenario.

Janna: 50:05

Sure.

Asingia: 50:06

But the idea that that Africa or most emerging markets are constantly in a disaster scenario is just a Western lie that thanks to technology may one day become history, so that well meaning donations and grants and, you know, contributions actually go to support our communities that need them. But individuals become introduced to the underlying value of currency, which is value exchange, and that they can then learn to say, how do we acquire more of that capital that we need to transact. And thankfully, that it won't just be cash used by the mafia and the corrupt, that will be some more transparent and ideally, ethical currency or means of transaction. So that seems to be the upside of a cashless society, but only if we design it the right way. So I think that's really what excites me that it's just the the financial banking or banking the unbanked is just the beginning. It's like giving them internet. And then they realize, wow, there's a lot more things on the internet, beyond the email that I just received. I can set up an e- commerce store, I can pay my taxes online, I can go to school online. And more importantly, I can have a financial plan for my kids and for my descendants. So it does allow for long term thinking beyond where do I get my next donation?

Janna: 51:42

So when you think big, where do you see that capability, expanding and enriching the lives of communities, people, countries regions?

Asingia: 51:56

When I think big, while I go back to the fundamentals, I think education, just mentioned it we think about it, how big how technology is going to just benefit learning, especially across cultural learning, which I'm very passionate about. Forget this colonial education, that all of you have to know English to learn. That world is long gone, you know, whatever the examples I gave in the book is India, for example, where Google is supporting localization. And then the all you have to know is Hindi.

Janna: 52:27

Can you talk a little bit about that example? I thought that was quite good so...

Asingia: 52:30

Yeah. So in India, the government and despite every government has some criticism. But one thing they've really been doing consistently over the last 10 years has been embracing more of a digital India mandate. So they started with a digital identity program, biometrics digital identity program, collecting millions and millions of records in terms of registering people so they can get digital access to services. Again, that was a way to fight corruption, where, as I mentioned, just proving yourself in emerging markets can be a challenge. So tackling identity was critical to make sure we know how many citizens we have, how many people in which county, which district? And how do we deliver effective services. The second phase was then to empower and digitize government departments and institutions. And I think they're doing a slow but steady progress around that. I mean, we've seen communities benefit from electricity, internet connectivity, you know, it's still a long way to go. But again, they've come a long way. So much so that in the 2020s, they now have a law where foreign entities in India cannot buy outright become a majority owner in an Indian company. So I think it has to be probably less than 10%. Something non influential ownership, they call it. It's a form of protectionism. Yes, but I would argue...

Janna: 53:11

Sure.

Asingia: 53:17

...that's the antidote to a colonial monopolistic sort of way of doing business that started with the British monopolies. If we think of colonial, the Royal Charter, they would call it you'd get a charter to be the exclusive operator of sugar canes in the Caribbean in a particular country. So that kind of monopolistic colonial monopolies often exclude local economies, or local participants from participating an economy and actually extract the value by way of cash out of the society. So India's antidote and we think that in Rwanda and, and other countries that are learning that is to institute a think they have about a 2% tax. on foreign investments, there's more more compliance around registration. And as I mentioned, foreign institutions cannot directly do business in India, they have to buy or invest in a local entity. So Amazon has to buy an Amazon subsidiary or local company, that's, they now have more of a franchise model essentially to say, we will then provide the capital for these Indian companies that often will employ Indians, local Indians to have them actually do the work. So it's it's just great program across many areas because local talent then becomes devolved, both from a financial perspective, but also from a labor... just traditional labor context. So that is India in a nutshell. And I mean, there's other examples, but we won't get into deep into depth because of lack of time. But there's other examples around how the entrepreneurs then within India also say, one of the quotes that I love is from one of the leading entrepreneurs where he says, "Why should the West have all the fun?" You know, why should only America and half the UK have billionaires, when we have billions of people that we can bring online and provide email and e-commerce and transport and you're gonna see, you know, obviously, electric vehicles and scooters and, and telehealth or mentoring, a lot of young people in India are working with tackling diabetes and, you know, huge, huge challenge, where a lot of people are losing their legs almost every year, millions or 1000s of people because of lack of access to the, you know, the kind of care and so there's a lot of challenges. The other exciting thing you asked what what is that feature that imagine? You know, I see health, beyond financial access and literacy, then healthcare becoming a big deal. In Rwanda, for example. There's a founder that I was mentoring, he founded the accuracy be technology. And he actually just won a $25,000 grant from an organization... an event that was organized by Kagami, the Rwandan president. So he's tackling digital identity in healthcare, how do we manage electronic health records, where they are traditionally paper based in Rwanda or across Africa. So that means every time you visit your doctor or you go from one hospital to the next, they don't actually have your records.

Janna: 57:14

That's right.

Asingia: 57:15

And they either have to call in or ask you to come back, or they lost them or they were damaged in a fire. And that's a big deal. For somebody who needs urgent medical attention. That has to be accurate, because it's a health concern. So digitizing health records, is going to absolutely absolutely usher in a new era of better health care access, obviously, reliable prescriptions, and I think, ultimately, he will be rich, needless to say, but that's after the fact that he did this to benefit his society and is just practically applying the technology skills as learning in schools to solve local issues. So I think that's the cashless society and vision where it's people creating local solutions with a local context. And that can become almost very effective, as opposed to waiting to import, which is the Technology Transfer model of oh, we're a large management consultancy, let's call it the McKinsey model. Therefore, we're gonna license you this electronic medical records, software from the US works really well, but doesn't translate to local languages or does not support these unique use cases, more importantly, takes the money away from the country, rather than supporting local innovators. So I think we're seeing a lot of those trends begin to change by local entrepreneurship becomes the antidote to a colonial legacy. And, and again, this kind of cashless, philosophical, let's call it ethical leadership, both from government and entrepreneurs themselves focusing on inclusive innovations, either culturally, cultural inclusion, but also just demographic inclusion in terms of population becomes really, to me much more impressive foundation, you know, and somewhat more exciting of like here, we are now impacting millions of users overnight. In when, when government traditionally would have taken another five years evaluating the best electronic medical records company from abroad, and maybe someday will work when the money runs out. The population is left without something right. So this creates a long culture of longevity, and forward thinking that is much needed across the world so that we start to look beyond what I call urgent problems. Not everything is urgent. Somebody needs to plan for the future. We can't always be putting out the fire of today. There is a future after today that we need to always be thoughtful about if history has taught us anything.

Janna: 59:57

Absolutely. One of the topics in your book that you raise is the adoption and adaptation can sometimes lead to creative destruction, which you call an unfortunate consequence of progress. And I think it's important to address this because some people are inherently fearful of technology or new way of doing things. You know, the stereotype is the Luddites, who destroyed the first automated or mechanized looms, I believe. But there's many people who will hear about this and say, Oh, but this will and and and many countries will hear about a new automated system and say, well, this is going to take away jobs, or it will destroy our system of doing things that is that is, you know, finally functioning after many, many years of refinement. Do you want to comment on that idea of how innovation might initially create destruction of some old ways of doing things? And what's the underlying benefit? Or the reason you should persevere?

Asingia: 1:01:06

Yeah, so I actually had an interesting conversation, I'll get to my own perspective, I want to start with another person's point of view. I had an interesting conversation with Dr. Jose Ramos, who was who is a founder of Ad Astra media and they are working on inclusive media focused on integrating a NASA kind of, in direct partnership with NASA, how do they make NASA's image expand to reach, like the Latino community in the US and other what I call the now global majority? Because I think statistically, we have more non-white babies being born in the US, so. But how do we make sure that we are training people, because it comes back to social engineering and the message we're putting out there, that technology isn't a problem, which is the one of the big sub theme within my book, technology is neutral. And and it's human beings that are biased. And because we're biased, we have to be careful how we design systems, because we transfer the very values we were talking about earlier, of identity of ownership of trust and scale, you know, scale, meaning how many people should have access to this platform? Should it just work well for 10 people and then crash when we reach 100? Or do we go the M PESA way, so it works for everybody. So those values are what we extend to the design of technologies. And I think that the fear is often because we lack trust in the people rolling, rolling out technologies or building them. And part of the antidote for that is our co-creation models. Engaging communities, as I mentioned, these innovations, electronic medical records, innovations happening in Kigali, Rwanda, or the digital internet services happening in India, because they're Indian owned, because they're Chinese made, because they arrived and made. All of a sudden, that trust is not as a big deal. These are local solutions. We know these people, they are neighbors, I went to school with this person. There's all of a sudden social trust, and cultural trust, that is just priceless. It has nothing to do with cash yet. It has to do with these human values. So that's a big, big, big factor. But also, the fear is natural, it's normal, we can say, we will eliminate fear, we can just improve its interpretation. So part of the things I touch on again really quickly is the US way of innovation is innovate fast, and then self-regulate later.

Janna: 1:03:58

Right.

Asingia: 1:03:59

So it's almost like the government only comes in maybe when somebody dies.

Janna: 1:04:04

There's a creditor

Asingia: 1:04:05

And then it would take us another 10 years, as I share with the Boeing example, where the Federal Aviation Authority clearly knew there were issues with the airlines. And they did not do anything, until this day, failed to subsequently enforce its own recommendations. And these airlines kept crashing, even though when Boeing advisory board knew there was something faulty. So I call that the American way of doing business. I don't know how popular that is going to be in America. But that is the truth. So the American way of doing business becomes very cash first.

Janna: 1:04:40

And you might say that's just capitalism unchecked, right? Because whatever costs less, and whatever profits more is is the way to go. So and I should mention that with a Boeing example, of course, that was in the news, so many people may remember and this is outlined in your book, where Boeing really didn't withdraw or make any attempt to correct what they knew was an existing problem causing airplanes to crash until they were forced to do so by regulatory bodies. That happens in many industries or even in the automobile industry. And it's it's simple capitalism, where if you're a company, and you're going to pay a small penalty for faulty equipment, even if that happens to kill a certain number of people, the equation only tips you're only willing to with recall those vehicles or that equipment, if either A, the lawsuits cost you more than the recall, or B, the PR and the bad PR could impact your sales and therefore cost you more than the recall. So I think that's a really fundamental problem.

Asingia: 1:05:55

Yeah.

Janna: 1:05:56

And and so your, your concept of trust that you talk about, is so fundamental to this.

Asingia: 1:06:02

Yeah. And I think the media plays an important role in part of that. The media attention, definitely, exposure, and that traceability again, if it's done electronically, then maybe, I mean, let's look at, you know, WikiLeaks is another example is that in there, I forget the name of the guy who make to WikiLeaks was Julian Assange. But there's another guy, the ex NASA analyst who is now in Russia.

Janna: 1:06:30

Oh, Edward Snowden.

Asingia: 1:06:31

Edward Snowden. You know, and there's this big conversation around well, was it worth it? After all these years? Has society even learned its lesson? Is he a traitor? Or, you know, or a patriot? You know, and I say none of those things matter. What matters is we got the information we what we needed to know, which was related to trust of you giving away too much information and I would say unchecked power to institutions that are digitizing your whole existence. And you absolutely have no say into that. And if that's okay, in a society that claims to be for independence, and, and privacy and rights, then, you know, my, my, my critique is always to call attention to the illusion, illusions or dilemmas of freedom, of trust, of ownership. Like, when you say you own when America owns something, who really owns it? In America, that means a certain company. Because even America itself is a corporation as some institution, like, yes, it's by the people for the people. But really, the charter itself stipulates that it's a corporation. So the government services are often subcontracted to private institutions, as we've seen with prison system, which is going to amock. The healthcare system ultimately, is beyond, you know, is it's an all it's an all league because you have to think twice before you even think about seeing your doctor. So, you know, absolute capitalism itself isn't, in its purest form the answer, but social awareness and activism and regulatory policy and media attention, what I just call basic credit, critical thinking, is really the antidote when I'm saying we're gonna fix all these problems overnight, but we can embrace a society that, that that questions, things that, that challenges things, and that's the beauty of science. That's the beauty of openness, where it's not because I questioned something, all of a sudden, I'm anti American, you know, watch what Boeing did may have been endorsed by America, because it was silent about it. But it doesn't suddenly make it American.

Janna: 1:08:55

No, and to be fair, that has happened in other countries. But what do you think will incentivize people to aim for equitable practices? If they are not open to that today? Is there anything you'd like to highlight?

Asingia: 1:09:15

Yeah, I think people are open to that. I think people are told they're not.

Janna: 1:09:19

Right.

Asingia: 1:09:20

But I think, you know, part of the the dilemma of life is you don't really care about something unless it's personal. And so but governments, and one can say more than tech companies, are de-personalizing service delivery, de-personalizing education, de- personalizing every experience so that ultimately you feel like you have no control. But you know, one of the other podcasts, somebody mentioned that we can actually be co- contributors or co-creators, because just as much as there's bad people, creating bad uses of technology, we need the good guys also building equitable and inclusive innovations. Because again, technology is neutral. So I think the incentive is to say, do you want to be a part of the future internet? Do you want to have a say? Do you want to have some level of control? Do you want to see your values reflected in what the future looks like? And I get that the result, the answer is yes, for most people. So the future is actually going to be inclusive and culturally relevant, because the innovations themselves are going to be created in these communities, from what I call the global majority, because they would have a personal connection to being historically excluded. And it is their mandate. And, and it's really the only option to be participants and co- creators, for them to even have a say, because otherwise, the past stays the norm. And they already have a sense of that. So I think the incentive is going to come from a sense of just a need for belonging is going to come it's more of a philosophical incentive. Primarily, which is this...

Janna: 1:09:28

And evidence, evidence that you are already part of the solution or the system that can engage.

Asingia: 1:11:08

Yes. You are already part of the solution. And, and the beauty with that is self fulfilling, because, as I mentioned, you're seeing that in India, why should the West have all the fun? You're seeing that in West Africa, why should France dictate our destiny? The thing that I mentioned was that you're seeing that in East Africa, to say, wow, this stuff works! Okay, what is the next M PESA? How can we support that? So it's, it's once you take that first step, then the society is able to benefit and see the benefits and become co- participants. Because the success is really their success, all of a sudden, it's no longer something external. And I think that's the power. So perhaps the government's role, if any, becomes to create that environment that protects that, and one of the arguments that I don't know, if we'll have time to get into was the idea of if we extend this conversation around ownership, it centers around intellectual property ownership, and how that can be better supported and enforced, really globally, because to me, it seems to me right now, only China is giving the US a run for its money. You know, it seems to me that American companies, by default, have global IP enforcement. And yet, if you're an African company, you often struggle to even get global recognition, later on in Africa for your own innovation. So that is just a big gap and can be addressed outright by African governments just beginning to be more forceful of their own IP as is, as has been the case in India and China. Because all of a sudden, you're forced to now negotiate on equal terms, as opposed to saying, Oh, no, by default, only US COVID vaccines are valid, only US aid vaccines are valid. I think that's just the wrong way to do things. And perhaps, as an upside to COVID if there is any, it's it's exposing all those fundamental fallacies of the traditional way we were doing business or innovating.

Janna: 1:13:21

Well, maybe you want to elaborate that on ownership. Because when I hear the word ownership, I do tend to associate it with more of the individualistic ideology. And, for example, in North America and any country that's been colonized, really, that was devastating. The idea that that ownership could completely wipe out the legacy of what existed before simply because somebody traded an object for land or whatever it was.

Asingia: 1:13:57

Right.

Janna: 1:13:58

But I think when you talk about ownership, you're specifically or maybe I'm wrong here, but you're specifically talking about IP. So intellectual property?

Asingia: 1:14:07

Maybe partially right. So I think, welcome to my world. I mean that in the sincerest way. I think I'm always now always thinking in two ways. I think technically and I'm thinking philosophically in the background. So again, ownership just like cashless society or to have two definitions. Well, one we could say is the Western or capitalistic way that has to do with our rights of ownership, which can then be backed by legal documents. By legal we then mean some kind of governmental institution, which by the way, is in direct conflict with communal ownership all across Asia and most countries. I think China then becomes the only successful government that has legitimized communal ownership and actually outpaced a capitalistic ownership structure. So China to date files more patents and trademarks than any other Western company, or country. China today owns a lot of IP that is critical to the future of innovation in biomedical research and other areas. And I think that shows that it's possible in Africa. A lot of universities, unfortunately, in Africa, when they have their own innovation, it's in collaboration with the European institutions, who often then trademark that IP in the UK and other countries, and they never really benefits the continent. Okay. So when we talk in the legal definition of ownership, yes, it has to do with IP, it has to do with some kind of title or deed on land. But as history has shown, that's not the big deal. You know why? Because governments rise and fall. Kingdoms rise and fall. So the authority behind the deed or title isn't necessarily permanent, or is not as absolute as we think. If you want clarification, ask people who've lived under colonialism, ask people who live in Taiwan, and maybe Chinese influence ask people, you know, jurisdictions change from time to time, and I think we'll be I won't play the naivete game of pretending that doesn't matter. So so they, let me quickly address the non technical definition of ownership, which is really what is self incentivizing. It's the co-creation ownership of you own something merely by thinking it, merely by creating, it merely by participating in it. And that's the ideal definition of cashless because it's forget the... forget the title first, we can get that to operate in a legal world because we all have to answer to some king or queen or government. But before that, how do I trust you? You're in Canada. I'm in New York. I'm Ugandan. Before we even get to those jurisdictional concerns, how do we establish trust between each other. And that's somewhat philosophical, it's sometimes it's not purely technical. And so the ownership comes from co creation and participation, and being visible and seen and being a member of the society. And I think that's becoming increasingly more and more relevant to a lot of solutions, where if you look at the internet, the memes, you look at the Reddit, anti Wall Street campaign, to say, if Wall Street wants to think this company is now worth buying, we're gonna put our cents and pennies together and say, no, the game stock is a Gamestop stock is actually worth buying. And guess what, for a moment, they won, obviously, it was it was protected by the government, and it didn't last long. But it's that kind of individual activism that I'm seeing more and more of, where despite the underlying, one could say oppressive legal structures, the cultural or philosophical drive, often perseveres, because it's those values that then become embedded in our technology or the way you use it. So what's Twitter without its users, what's PayPal without its merchants, what's a bank without its customers. And by the way, what's a government without its citizens. So whatever the jurisdiction is, is not as prominent as the will of the people as the relevance of the innovation or the ownership of a society that is subjective to that jurisdiction.

Janna: 1:18:45

This is really, really interesting. And I'm really enjoying your your conversation. If you wanted people to take away one idea from this conversation, what do you think is the most powerful idea or relevant idea that you'd like people to remember?

Asingia: 1:19:05

Ah, I'll say three ideas. I would say that technology is neutral. And it's us human beings who actually have values and influence or create technology. And so we need to often look at ourselves, look in the mirror and look at ourselves first, before we blame technology because we create it, we use it, we regulate it. So it comes back to human accountability. Number two, that individuals have a role as individual agencies is going to be more and more important than anything. We can, thanks to the internet, we have an opportunity to teach ourselves things we did not know. So ignorance is not an excuse. And more importantly...

Janna: 1:19:45

Maybe say that one more time ignorance is not an excuse

Asingia: 1:19:48

...is not an excuse anymore, because we have opportunity to ask questions across borders and cultures. We, a lot of us are lucky to live in cities or urban areas. To go to schools that now have international students, like, you can learn about a country, you can host somebody for dinner, for coffee, there's so much we could do to just learn about the world, even if it's being censured online. There's still somebody in your community, which other people call a human library that's there that you may not know of. So keep asking those questions. And more importantly, know that your own personal development benefits society, whether you believe it or not, but believe in yourself and keep asking those questions. And then, most importantly, I would say the big takeaway for policymakers or innovators, or anybody who thinks they are ready to change the world, which is hard, or change their community is don't do it for the money. It costs money to create change. I'm not dismissing the financial cost, or need for a budgets and expenses to be met to reliably create the long lasting institutions. But it's the values behind the need for a solution that make it last, when the money runs out, or when the community needs evolve. How do you adapt that solution to meet the new needs, and so the human values, or company values or your own personal values should often lead even though they are about they might evolve over time, they should be the foundation for the way you do things and the way you innovate and the way you lead because ultimately, that's your biggest contribution to society.

Janna: 1:21:38

I think you're what's next for you, and how can people reach you to learn more or follow you?

Asingia: 1:21:44

What's next is, I believe, A that by the end of the year or sometime next year, I'm going to be somebody in the investment space, just taking my time to build the right relationships and collaborate with the right entrepreneurs. But I think what's next is a lifelong commitment to supporting the right ideas and hopefully helping deploy the right capital to them. People can find me on my personal site brianasingia.com. And the social media handles on Instagram, Twitter, and really anywhere is just @brianasingia. And that's the best way to find everything. I'm pretty approachable. I'm on all online, most online platforms. I do value virtual speaking and other kinds of engagements. So please reach out I'd love to hear from you and continue this conversation.

Janna: 1:22:42

Well, thanks so much for coming on the podcast. I will include all of those handles and links within the show notes so that people can find you easily. And I look forward to following you and seeing what you do next.

Asingia: 1:22:54

Thank you Janna.

Janna: 1:23:06

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